Spyware Warrior

[fcukdat]

http://a-sap.org/

the whole concept of ASAP is a great idea and kudos to those who pioneered it and those who are members.thank you for what you are doing for us all.

i have a concern with use of ASAP membership/use of logo and recommended website listings which i would like raise here before possibly bringing it to the attention of the organization.

[TeMerc]

Which sites are you talking of, and what sort of products are you referring to?

I am not quite sure I understand exactly.

Also, have you posted this over at SpywareBeware, which is Maddoktors, home site, the founder of ASAP?
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[paperghost]

I personally feel ASAP needs an overhaul - there's a danger we're going to end up with about six hundred sites on the list, even with Maddoktor's strict admissions policy.

If they were categorised into relevant sections it wouldnt be an issue, and this would then also mean you could maybe have a "special" section where one product only forums (if there are any) could happily reside.

At this rate theres a danger ASAP could be seen as a very large webring and nothing more, and that'd be a real shame. The cross site interaction is a lot better than it once was and everyone knows each other.

I remember a while back someone posted a rather savage trolling attack over there - it actually raised a serious debate about the future of ASAP, and how it could be so much better if it was organised into a cohesive unit in some way - almost like a giant organisation - rather than a big collection of security forums. Unfortunately nothing really came out of it, and i was vaguely dissapointed by this. But i definitely think at some point the ASAP admins are going to have to bang heads and have a long, hard think about why we're actually in ASAP and what we need to do.

[fcukdat]

[TeMerc]

Well, for Lavasoft you need to understand, they are also using that forum as a gathering grounds for things they need to enter into their defs database, and to see how their app works on various infections. So they would be in their rights to do so, and not be concerned about other applications in my eyes.

JMHO

Tom
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[mikey]

The topic title here doesn't address me as I'm not a member of ASAP so I shouldn't post at all. However, if I was going to respond, it would be similar to that of PG above while remembering to mention that "To promote the products used to keep your computer clean and safe in an equal and fair manner." does seem like a contradiction in terms as worded.

Seems kinda trivial tho.
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[fcukdat]

[fcukdat]

[paperghost]

To be fair, Lavasoft's forum does have a HJT forum which operates in pretty much the same was as any other HJT forum.

[fcukdat]

[paperghost]

[mikey]

[fcukdat]

[herbalist]

Fcukdat,
I'm not a member of ASAP either, but I did want to add a couple things here. Before LS released AAWSE, their forums were set up differently. They used to have a "windows general" section where people could ask for help with any computer related issues. My old hangout. We helped people set up firewalls, find programs for specific tasks, almost anything you could think of. A lot of what we did there was preventative security. Close to the same time AAWSE was released, that section was closed. The reason I was given is that the forum was needed for product support. How the windows general section took anything away from actual product support, I don't know. Maybe helping users prevent problems was considered bad for business or something. Never did hear a satisfactory explanation on that one.
This all fits back with your original observations regarding a conflict of interest. What you're seeing there is the resulting conflict between product support and user support, and some very questionable decisions regarding both. At the top of that list is a decision that was made at some point when product support was made more important than user support. Most of the issues surrounding LS are a result of that decision. While no one there will ever say such a decision was made, it shows in their detection policies, forum policies, and in a big turnover in membership, especially of long term members.
This is really a priorities issue and it has a simple answer, which is this:
Make the needs and wishes of the user top priority.
Not the product or the company, the user. It's a simple and sound business practice. Take care of the customer and they'll take care of you. Give the customer what they want and they'll give you their business. If you don't give them what they want or need, they'll get it elsewhere.
The goals of ASAP and providing quality support for a product to not have to be a conflict of interest. A company like Lavasoft could accomplish this in a couple of ways.
1, Give the customer the ability to remove whatever they choose to, instead of telling them that you don't consider a particular item to be a threat. Let the customer decide that for themselves.
2, If you will not target an item the user wants to remove, refer them to something that will. This takes nothing away from AAW, as it didn't target the item anyway, and it shows the user that you care about what they want, even if you can't/won't do it yourself. This approach would be far better for customer relations, and would also support the goals and spirit of ASAP. Product support does not have to be at the expense of user support. Doing so is a sure way to end up with no users of your product at all.
Rick

[fcukdat]

no problems rick,again your opinion is highly respected and welcome.

your pretty much hitting the nail on the head with (sole)product support vs user support.

if ASAP members are giving advice that contradicts ASAP goals,then membership reference and logo should be removed from their profiles,signatures and avatars on the offending forums where this advice is being delivered.
ASAP membership/logo is seen as an endorsement of advice given by the member.where the advice is restricted/handicapped by TOS of a forum the member should distant theirselves from using this form of endorsement of the advice they give.it is deceiving to average joe surfer and dose not serve ASAP set out goals.
JMHO


with that im still hoping that other resident ASAP members at this forum(there's a lot of you) and visiting ASAP members would post in with their thoughts whether they agree or disagree with my concern.
i would like to invite(but not holding my breath for it)members of ASAP(you know who you are) from offending forums to post their views on my concerns.
the invitation is also extended to anyone who is participating in the privacy community and the battle against the nasties of the web through freedom of information and subsequent education.


fao any ASAP member that has read this thread and choose to remain silent and not pass comment.ask yourself why did you join ASAP in the 1ST place and are you best serving the goals of ASAP
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[Maddoktor2]

Hi folks, and thanks for the invite to participate.

I'll only say this on the matter:

Has anyone here ever asked the guy that stocks the local Pepsi machine to add a row or two of Coke so the selection can be "more balanced", afford "greater variety" and provide a "more rounded solution" to your thirst?
Try it - watch his reaction...

Ok, so much for dedicated support forums and the fictitious concept of "freedom of speech" on the internet - moving on to Lavasoft itself...

Lavasoft provides a product designed to help safely clean your system - that and the quality of support given by its tireless staff qualifies it for ASAP membership - it will not be removed from the listings only because it supports a specific product in it's forums.

Now, this next bit is addressed to nobody in particular, and yet to everyone in general:

Recommend or not - it's your choice - but I will say that if you recommend against an effective tool due to whatever personal axe you may have to grind with the company that provides it, you're not only doing a huge disservice to hapless users, but also helping out those that continue this assault on our personal, privately owned machines by turning them into personal, privately owned corporate adservers.

This is irresponsible and unacceptable.

For example, let's say that someone new to computing gets invaded by something that only Ad-aware can remove, but due to reading somewhere that it can't be trusted thanks to your personal grudge against Lavasoft, that same user does not try it and winds up formatting as a result, losing irreplacable and valuable data in the process (remember this is a newbie - backup is out of the question - he doesn't know the meaning of the word unless it applies to a car).
Proud of yourself? You should be - you stuck by your guns.
Oh, wait - the user - forgot about him, didn't you? That's ok - the scumlords at least thank you, so you can still walk tall knowing your efforts are appreciated by someone out there, and that free speech on the internet has advanced another notch.

Bollocks - get over yourself and think of the user.

The bottom line is this:

To combat these assaults on our machines, we need every tool at our disposal, not just those whose politics and privately owned forum policies we agree with.
We need Ad-aware.
We need HijackThis.
We need Spybot S&D.
We need Webroot.
We need MSAS.
etc.

I don't give a crap who makes the hammer - if it drives the nail, that's good enough for me.

I'm done discussing Lavasoft now - moving on...

ASAP is currently at 50 sites - it's nearing its first anniversary on March 14th, and the "rush" is over for the most part - fewer and fewer sites are now being added due to the srtingent qualifications that favour "established" sites.
(Sorry, but "Hey, I just made a support site and forum! Add me!" just does not qualify.)

To paperghost:
I am very interested in any suggestions you may have re: categorization, structure, etc - please contact me about any layouts you may have in mind?

To everyone else fighting the good fight:

Hang in there, folks - this war is just starting, and we have to provide a united front if we expect to get through it in one piece.
Most importantly, we have to convince our assorted lawmakers that intrusions of this nature must be legislated against, and strongly.
Until then:
Educate yourselves - knowledge is our most effective weapon to lever in this war!
Promote products that do the job equally and fairly - ASAP itself came into being as a direct result of my efforts to end a war between Ad-aware and Spybot S&D - it was the next logical step to take in an effort to prevent users from needlessly suffering due to whatever personal issues anyone may have with a given product or the company that provides it.

Personal axes are dull by their very nature and need constant grinding - let's learn from the past, not repeat it, and move on, shall we?

I have nothing further to say on the matter - thanks for the invite and for listening, everyone.
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[suzi]

Well said, Maddoktor2. Excellent post.

I don't agree with some of the things Lavasoft has done at all, but Ad-Aware is a damn good anti-spyware app, not perfect, but really good. Of all the anti-spyware apps I know of, it's the only one that has never given me a false positive, which speaks highly for its scanning engine and definitions. Its scanning engine is more sophisticated than most, or maybe all, of the anti-spyware apps.

We already knew that there is no one anti-spyware app that removes everything, so the fact that Ad-Ware doesn't target WhenU or some others we think it should target doesn't make it any different from the others in a sense, because none of them get everything, either. This is well demonstrated in Eric Howes' anti-spyware tests, which I think those of you posting in this thread are familiar with.

I think Lavasoft's weakest area is communications - we've seen evidence of that a number of times. But that doesn't mean its software is bad. Lavasoft has provided a *huge* service to the internet community with the free version of Ad-Aware for several years now. Yes, they have made some big mistakes, but that does not take away from the good they've done.

As far as their forum is concerned, I don't agree with how they run it all the time, but it is *their* forum, to support *their* products, so I believe they have the right to run it as they see fit.

Personally, I have not uninstalled Ad-Aware and don't intend to. I would still recommend it in a heartbeat, but I always tell people to use several apps, not just one, and have been saying that for a long time anyway. I agree with Eric's list of recommended apps, posted here:

http://www.spywarewarrior.com/rogue_anti-spyware.htm#trustworthy

I would personally add CounterSpy to that list.

I think we need to look at the bigger picture and not lose site of the real goal here.
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[mikey]

I don't have any issue here in this thread but after reading all the OT comments here, I do have some of my own to make.

As someone who has heard the 'why are you picking on poor LS?' many times, I would ask; How does the truth hurt?

I myself have pulled back from telling folks the truth on occassion because of fear of damaging the community itself. Well the community is quite strong now(thx in large part to ASAP) and there are litterally dozens of adequate anti-malware products to choose from now.

I don't personally intend to ever stop letting folks know what I see. LS & PMK have both tried to shut me up before...it just isn't going to happen.

I always have to wonder about motivation when I see folks who are scared to address or look for the truth.

I can't speak for anyone else but if someone wants to make me quiet, it's simple to do...just proove me wrong. May I suggest that to quiet fcukdat, you might try addressing his issue instead of crying about the dirt left on LS whenever their ethics and policies are questioned.

JMO
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[fcukdat]

thanks for popping down Doc,

all points considered i agree with most of what you are saying and thanks for addressing/dismissing my concerns so expediently.

[mikey]

Hmmm, never did see any debate on the issue. I guess since fcukdat has capitulated, the issue must have been 'trivial' after all. Oh well, plenty of other issues to go around.
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[fcukdat]

[JeanInMontana]

[fcukdat]

[TeMerc]

After reading this a couple of times, I am curious of one thing:
Does\has anyone over at that forum ever recommended any other app, aside from AAW SE?

I do not lurk there as their primary goal, in my eyes is to figure out ways to improve the app, JMHO.

And if anyone has recommeneded another app, was the post edited out?
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[fcukdat]

ok tom
lavasoft forum TOS
http://www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.php?act=boardrules

[TeMerc]

Well, as odd as that is, it just affirms my position on why they really have support forums in the first place. More to serve their own purpose than anything else.

As everyone knows in the forums, you cannot possibly rely on one singlge app to remove everything.

Funny tho, they don't mind pushin HJT and using that, so, in essenece they break their own TOS don't they?

And this would bring to the front what about all the other special tools? About:Buster, Peper tools, CWShredder and so forth?

Do they use those tools there? I would guess so, then, in my eyes, that makes the TOS even less valid.
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[fcukdat]

i overlooked that point.

i hope this is'nt a sign of things to come,censorship is an unpleasent thing.
http://forums.maddoktor2.com/index.php?s=6a0b008aa6cafce7ef44981b581bd20f&showtopic=3267

someone has kindly locked the thread for whatever reason i do not know
i cannot reply to a couple of contentious posts there.
so i hope no none minds if i answer them here instead

fao jeaninmontana/winchester73
yes i registered in order to post the invite down to this discussion.whats the problem with that?

fao all that disagree with my concerns or method of delivery,try taking the time to digest this which i have posted down at the CARMA forum before posting.

[herbalist]

[fcukdat]

off topic but relevent to the spirit of ASAP.this is something for ASAP members/hierachy and the privacy community in general.please take time to research/read these threads they are highly relevent!

http://www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.php?showtopic=51429
*as with all threads where i have participated,i've kept a copy for prosperity should lavasoft forum mods/admin decide to nuke/edit
the facts-

the Doc says

[mikey]

Well, I've almost got my archives completely restored again. Yea!

I've been going through some of the cached pages from LS and found this to be somewhat relevant to your your querry, fcukdat.

http://www.voiceofthepublic.com/lsb6/LavasoftSupportBoard44.htm

Among the noteable members involved in the discussion are many we all recognize and the thread clearly shows that this situation has existed ever since LS has become only one fish in the sea.

I still don't see much merit in this issue as LS's participation in ASAP doesn't seem to me to be of much importance. But I do respect your right to question any policy. And since reading the less than adequate response from the leadership of ASAP, I am much more inclined to take up your cause.

Whenever I see someone hide from an issue, it makes me want to know why.
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[Maddoktor2]

Hi, guys.
I want to apologize for my rather terse response the other day - I was rushed at the time, and upon rereading it, I can see how it could be interpreted as dismissive - this was not my intent, and Mike is right - it is less than adequate - I'm sorry for that.
I'm a little rushed at the moment as well as I have to be out the door for work in less than a half hour, so I'm going to make this quick, and we can get back to it later after I'm home, ok?

Right now, I want to address the issue of the locked topic over at my place. I don't know why it was closed, but I will be happy to reopen it for further discussion.
However, what I think might be a best course of action here is to contain this discussion in one place if at all possible - I'm sorry, but real life constraints just don't give me the time I need to run over to CARMA, back to my place, and then here chasing this issue.
So, what I'd like to propose (with Suzi's kind permission) is to continue the discussion here where it started, and just leave the topic at my place closed with an added note to please come here, if that suits?
Like I said, I'll be happy to reopen it, but I think it'll just make this harder to follow in the long haul - let me know what you think, ok?.

TIA, and Cheers.
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[mikey]

Now that sounds much more like the Dok I expected to see.

Sorry about the grief I gave you, Dok but I was litterally thrown for a loop. Thx for giving this another look.

BTW The idea of a single thread makes sense to me.
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[fcukdat]

thank you Doc

posting a redirection to here for the discussion would be a good idea and then locking it is no longer a contentious issue.
also if madameX over at carma can post a simmilar redirection to here over at the Carma forums that would be on the ball.

the invite still stands for any ASAP member to join in the discussion as well as members with relevent input but the personnal mudslinging has got to be left behind,it dose no one any favours.so with that anyone thinking of posting please carefully read the whole thread.
[/quote]
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[Andy_veal]

For refering to other programs is against the TOS at the lavasoft forum. This is because the Lavasoft forums are for support of Lavasoft products.

At the release of Ad-aware SE, some forums closed down, such as the Windows General forum, to provide total support for Ad-aware SE.

After cleaning a computer, we evaluate suitable protection for members recommending sites that are accepted by the TOS.

If a problem is not Lavasoft based, we will try to assist and if we can not produce a solution we will recommend another forum.

Please remember that members of ASAP do not just work on one forum, if you look in members of Team Lavasoft you will see suggested sites to help protect computer security further.

All the best,

Andy
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[fcukdat]

hi and welcome andy,

right lets deal with facts if this is to be a productive discussion.please note i am addressing your statement.

http://www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.php?showtopic=59911

[Andy_veal]

Hello there.

I wasn't expecting a welcome, so thank you

For as we can see from the logfiles, he has good a secure computer.
AV
Firewall
Malware protection by Ad-aware SE

For if he didn't have good programs above, I would of suggested a list of good programs for his use.

I dont believe he will be back.

But if you think he has got a unsecure computer I have posted a hyperlink to a webpage that I believe provided a good list of programs.
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[fcukdat]

Andy,im not gnarly unless provoked.

the good secure programmes did'nt prevent this infection in the first place.thank you for inserting the hyperlink,hopefully 'robbo' will come back and click the link.

here's another one
http://www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.php?showtopic=59583

i can post a whole lot more links up with where joe surfer has been sent on his way without a shred of advice towards prevention to prove my point but i think you can see the point im making without having to go into it any further.
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[Andy_veal]

For i will take your suggestion, i will rewrite my signature and post suggested extra security links after successful cleaning.
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[fcukdat]

ur welcome

i think TeMerc signature hits the nail on the head as far as wording goes.rather than saying "reccomended programmes to help protect your computer"

try something along the lines
"programmes i use to protect my computer" near your ASAP logo

your the expert in joe surfers eyes,if its good enough for you then its good enough for him in most cases.
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[Scaramouche]

Hello All -

Just coming by because fcukdat linked to this thread in another thread from lavasupport, which he in turn linked to from here. I'm late to the debate, but I just posted something there that may relate to what Rick/Herbalist said earlier, which I'll duplicate here since the intent is to keep this within a thread:

---
Winchester73 -

Thanks for the reply. I do know that you are a volunteer and that you have little, if any power to influence the outcome of my problem. I hope you don't think that I was attacking you personally by continuing to post here because that was not my intent, but rather this is the only responsive channel of communication I've discovered after years of using Ad-Aware. If you felt at all assaulted by my reiteration of issues, I apologize. One of Lavasoft's great successes is that they have this community in the first place, and the only reason it exists is because of the dedication of volunteers like yourself.

You would think though, that the company would value your labours more by making it easier to help people. This forum is essentially Lavasoft's customer support operation. Customer Support is the front line contact with the client base, and needs all kinds of internal support to be able to do their job efficiently and convincingly. I'm not saying Lavasoft has to do this, but in my mind for this to be a complete and effective support operation the volunteers should have:
- Access to internal development information to answer non-spyware support questions
- The ability to escalate inbound issues to a responsible channel
- The ability to track and pressure those issues so they can be resolved

Right now though, the volunteers have the worst of both worlds. They are the face of the company, which means they collect the kudos but they also draw all the fire. Yet they don't have any information or power to resolve issues beyond analyzing log files (I don't say this to belittle the work of the volunteers here). The volunteers have to do all the work but don't appear to get any respect within the organization when it comes to decision-making ability. Because of this the volunteers are put in a nearly impossible situation; of appearing to be responsible, appearing to be an actual representative of the company, but having no power to resolve non-spyware/technical issues, having to say "I don't know" and "it's not within my power to find out". These people with issues are customers, and customers are not going to logically think "Ok, I can ask about THESE things here, but not THOSE things, which I have to ask elsewhere".

If the organization is a customer-focused one Customer Support is one of the single most important channels of input/output that the organization can have, but Lavasoft's implementation seems woefully incomplete. A Customer Support representative should be enpowered to answer questions, ask questions and get them answered, get customer issues escalated, and bring trouble to those who create customer issues. I know the volunteers are doing a good job in a hard situation but the question arises, who is creating the hard situation?

I'm sorry that went off on a bit of a tangent, but if Lavasoft wants to be taken seriously as a company that has a customer support operation they should >have< one, with all that entails. I'm not saying this to attack Lavasoft because I've said it before and I'll say it again; it's a good product. My even typing the above is completely out of line in my role here as a product manager for a competing anti-spyware application. But I've also been a user for long before that, and I'd like to see things done better.

<zerospyware specific stuff deleted>
---

Now that's a whole lot of text, but I think I'm starting to agree with Rick. That if Lavasoft wants a customer support operation they should have one. However this amalgam of internet forum/volunteers/corporate interest is a damaging one. The problem is one of expectation; if a knowledgeable internet user is going to a forum, he/she expects it to be generally impartial and to offer the best solution, not the one with a vested interest. Especially if that forum belongs to one of the most integral members of the anti-spyware world (if not the most).

I'm not slagging Lavasoft, because I don't think their intent was "hey, let's set up a forum and plug the heck out of our product!". Rather, they had something that worked during the freeware days and they are either unable or unwilling to replace it with a dedicated corporate solution.

Again, the problem is perception. The users are still in the world where they expect a lot of free, unbiased, volunteer-driven support but the company is now necessarily in a world where they need to make money and build awareness for their product. Unfortunately right now seems to be the period of time where those two perceptions are being reconciled, with resulting disillusionment in the users.

As to how this relates to ASAP I'm not sure (tip of the hat to Maddoktor2) but I don't think that Ad-Aware should 'lose' their ASAP status, because there is absolutely no reason to. As the good Doktor has already said, Ad-Aware's contribution to this battle has been invaluable. If ASAP had been around long enough to give out a Lifetime Achievement Award Lavasoft would have it in a lock.

What I think might happen though is that ASAP volunteers might not want to contribute to Lavasoft anymore. As I outline in the quote above I think it's going to get harder and harder for the volunteers to work there. Not because Lavasoft is evil and domineering and corporate (because they are not) but rather that volunteer expertise and the running of a good company are rarely compatible for long. At some point when Lavasoft finishes its retail launch the volunteers might go "You know, while I am helping people I am also helping someone else make money that I'm not actually getting any of". However I think this might be a good thing, since it could get Lavasoft to invest in a real support operation that is user-focused instead of the hybrid they have now.

Whoo that was long. See sig for usual disclaimers etc.

EDIT-changed some punctuation. Also another caveat: What I post about this is about a long-time user of Ad-Aware, and not as a representative of FBM Software.
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My comments represent my own opinions and research.