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What is this? Ask Jeeves is in the Spyware bussiness?!
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Exodus
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:24 pm    Post subject: What is this? Ask Jeeves is in the Spyware bussiness?! Reply with quote

Listen to this:

Quote:
SMILEY CENTRAL!

Get over 10,000 SMILEYS - all 100% free and accessible directly from your browser or IM!

Works with Yahoo IM, MSN IM, AIM and ICQ, plus Outlook, Outlook Express and Webmail!

No Spyware. No Adware.

Comes with FREE MyWebSearch accessible directly from your browser, plus Search Assistant - relevant search results in response to misspelled or incorrectly formatted browser address requests.

Also includes free Fun Web Products such as Popular Screensavers™, Cursor Mania™, and more!


What is that supposed to mean??? They don't consider themselves adware... THEY'RE the good guys, and now WE'RE the bad guys for trying to get rid of their honest, not malicious programs...

Err sorry, I got carried away... But the most shocking thing I find is this!!

Quote:
© 2005 Ask Jeeves, Inc. All rights reserved.


Now look at this!

Quote:
We also capture your source IP address which is a standard practice for most internet sites. We in no way associate your IP address with any cookies and do not use your IP address in conjunction with any personally identifiable information.

If any of the Web Sites or the Software is ever sold or all or substantially all of the assets relating to a Web Site or the Software are transferred to another entity, we may transfer all information provided by or collected from you, including personally identifiable information, in order to ensure continuity of your service.

We will disclose information, including personally identifiable information, data acquired by cookies, and other data, where required by a subpoena, interception order or other lawful process. We also reserve the right to disclose such information when we believe, in our sole judgment and to the extent consistent with applicable law, that such disclosure is necessary to protect the rights or safety of others or to enforce, or protect our rights under, this Agreement.


Is this new? How long has Ask Jeeves been in the Adware business?

I found all of this and more off their Privacy Policy. Apparently they own a number of Spyware Incorporated websites...

(Yes, this popup is somthing from a program installed on this box, a Ceres affiliate I think...)

EDIT: If someone can tell me how to make screenshots of whatever I am currently viewing, I'll get some and host them...
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suzi
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might be interested to read this from Ben Edelman's site about Ask Jeeves.

http://www.benedelman.org/news/050205-1.html

Apparently Ask Jeeves has been in the adware business for some time, but most people didn't realize it.

Another one - "Ask Jeeves for Adware"

http://blogs.download.com/Spyware-Confidential/post.php?p=350
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Chao284
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:24 am    Post subject: Re: What is this? Ask Jeeves is in the Spyware bussiness?! Reply with quote

Exodus wrote:
Listen to this:

Quote:
SMILEY CENTRAL!

Get over 10,000 SMILEYS - all 100% free and accessible directly from your browser or IM!

Works with Yahoo IM, MSN IM, AIM and ICQ, plus Outlook, Outlook Express and Webmail!

No Spyware. No Adware.

Comes with FREE MyWebSearch accessible directly from your browser, plus Search Assistant - relevant search results in response to misspelled or incorrectly formatted browser address requests.

Also includes free Fun Web Products such as Popular Screensavers™, Cursor Mania™, and more!


What is that supposed to mean??? They don't consider themselves adware... THEY'RE the good guys, and now WE'RE the bad guys for trying to get rid of their honest, not malicious programs...

Err sorry, I got carried away... But the most shocking thing I find is this!!

Quote:
© 2005 Ask Jeeves, Inc. All rights reserved.


Now look at this!

Quote:
We also capture your source IP address which is a standard practice for most internet sites. We in no way associate your IP address with any cookies and do not use your IP address in conjunction with any personally identifiable information.

If any of the Web Sites or the Software is ever sold or all or substantially all of the assets relating to a Web Site or the Software are transferred to another entity, we may transfer all information provided by or collected from you, including personally identifiable information, in order to ensure continuity of your service.

We will disclose information, including personally identifiable information, data acquired by cookies, and other data, where required by a subpoena, interception order or other lawful process. We also reserve the right to disclose such information when we believe, in our sole judgment and to the extent consistent with applicable law, that such disclosure is necessary to protect the rights or safety of others or to enforce, or protect our rights under, this Agreement.


Is this new? How long has Ask Jeeves been in the Adware business?

I found all of this and more off their Privacy Policy. Apparently they own a number of Spyware Incorporated websites...

(Yes, this popup is somthing from a program installed on this box, a Ceres affiliate I think...)

EDIT: If someone can tell me how to make screenshots of whatever I am currently viewing, I'll get some and host them...


A Ceres affiliate you say?

Now I think Webhelper needs to read this, knowing that VX2 also has a hand at this Ask Jeebes adware issue now, and I got a feeling that there could be more then just VX2 just waiting since transponder has been known to install other adware without any warning, I mean so far I have seen many of those ads on Gaming sites and About's website also, wich tells me that we are going to have to keep our eyes peeled and careful about this new threat, that is all I am saying.
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Recon Man
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone Very Happy ,

Ask Jeeves is, indeed, in the spyware and adware business. I must say that Ask Jeeves was actually a great information site at one time. Years ago, I would use Ask Jeeves to get straightforward answers to my queries. But one day, and out of the blue, Jeeves began giving links to go to for answers. I figuered that there was something fishy-rotten in Denmark and never went there ever again.

Just forget about that Arthur Treacher wannabe.

I now use 1-Click Answers and will continue using it until those Madison Avenue-type advertisers and spyware hitmen get to them too!

Uhm...I digress.


Best Regards,

Recon Man Wink
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Nick
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why waste your time with Jeeves when there is Google ?
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Nick
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, a quick search on Jeeves and Google using "girl" as the search term tells me alot. Google yields Girl Scouts and Covergirl (makeup) while the Jeeves search has a definate angle on spam in the results...
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Recon Man
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Nick Very Happy ,

Moral: Aspiring Girl Scouts and models should definitely stay away from 'funny' Uncle Jeeves Evil or Very Mad .

Google has my vote Big Thumb Up .

Best Regards,

Recon Man Wink
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Chao284
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is not the end of it guys, but just about a few minutes ago I just bumped into the IM sector of Download.com's site and guess what I found in the sponsored section that we need to remove right now,

hxxp://www.download.com/Smiley-Central/3000-2150_4-10330496.html?tag=stbc.gp

NOTE; URL marked just in case for securety reasons.

And guess what I feel this is just only going to make things alot worse, so I would see if this product needs to be removed because of the exploit problem of coruse, thank you and hope we can end this soon.
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Scaramouche
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back when I worked for an anti-spyware company a representative from AskJeeves would ask us quite regularly to stop detecting their spyware-related products. At first it was weatherbug, which wasn't such a big deal since it's pretty innocuous but it got worse after that.
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AskJeeves
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:56 am    Post subject: Ask Jeeves is listening and wants to understand Reply with quote

I just 'happened' upon this forum and this topic and felt that I must reply. I don't want this to be a formal "company" reply but an information discussion so that I can a) Understand why you feel that AJ software is Spyware, and b) give you information about us. Obviously the judgment is yours to make, but I do have a strong conviction in this matter.

I recently joined Ask Jeeves from Net Nanny where I was protecting our children from Internet predators and scum porn sites. My mission at AJ is to 1) Help get the AJ software recognized for what it really is, and 2) Investigate product futures - which I can really talk about yet (Hint: I'm a Product Manager).

Rather than just saying, oh yeah, they're spyware, can anyone tell me why they think we're spyware? (Note: I'm not trying to be confrontational here, only to understand)

-Kirk

PS No, we don't think we're the good guys and you're the bad guys... we just don't want to be the bad guys. Very Happy
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suzi
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kirk and welcome to Spyware Warrior.

I personally would not label Ask Jeeves' products as spyware, but I do think they can be called adware. And there have been some well documented instances of very questionable installation practices as outlined here:

http://www.benedelman.org/news/050205-1.html

Perhaps you like to comment on the issues raised there.

A link here referencing possible browser hijacking.

http://blog.searchenginewatch.com/blog/050502-180006

Another article about an unsolicited installation:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8086560/site/newsweek/

Best regards,

Suzi
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Ben Edelman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:19 pm    Post subject: AJ's Poor Installation Practices Reply with quote

I don't tend to think highly of AJ's various toolbars. All too often, they get onto users' computers without users affirmatively requesting them or even knowing they're coming.

* Installation through security exploits, without any notice or consent. Oone video posted to http://www.benedelman.org/news/050205-1.html . More on file.

* Tricky install procedures that don't readily provide all the information users need to make an informed choice, that target kids, etc. See e.g. http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/installations/askjeeves-banner/

* Disclosures in fine print, e.g. page 27 of a EULA shown in a scroll box, as in the AJ bundle with iMesh. http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/p2p/#imesh

* Pre-installation on users' PCs (e.g. with Dell), forcing users to remove AJ if they're not wanted rather than getting consent before installing.

All in all, when a user has an AJ toolbar, it's generally not because the user affirmatively wanted it. It's generally not even because the user granted consent to a reasonable offer fairly presented. Rather, in my experience, it's generally because AJ snuck on -- often through some kind of "consent," but a consent obtained in such poor circumstances that users can't reasonably be said to have understood what they were getting, or to have granted meaningful agreement.
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AskJeeves
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:05 pm    Post subject: Sorry about this Reply with quote

So... I've written my response, but our PR folks have to take a look at it to make sure I'm not going to embarass the company Wink , so I'm waiting for them to give me a green light. My apologies for the delay in posting.

-Kirk
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fcukdat
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Kirk,its been over two weeks i'm guessing you've been told "non parlais!" by your upline.
Sad
Now ask yourself why ?

And for anyone else reading this is conclusive proof of Ask Jeeves complicity with spyware Evil or Very Mad
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theCaptain
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fcukdat wrote:
Hey Kirk,its been over two weeks i'm guessing you've been told "non parlais!" by your upline.
Sad
Now ask yourself why ?

And for anyone else reading this is conclusive proof of Ask Jeeves complicity with spyware Evil or Very Mad


So, I'm here in my 'off time' as a private citizen and not representing anyone except myself. I cannot comment on Ask Jeeves' policies, but I will tell you a little bit about my personal background. Any and all views expressed herein are mine, and mine alone.

My last position was at Net Nanny, where I was the product manager for the flagship product (Child protection software) and where I also built Family-Safe search (search.netnanny.com). My mission being to protect our childen from the filth out there on the 'net. ( I have 2 kids myself, and yes, my son is a Boy Scout ). Our software has had the pleasure of contributing to bringing a number of child predators to justice.

Before that I built my own site called TheTextbookExchange. This is a site that was built so that students can buy and sell textbooks directly with eachother (eBay meets Amazon.com on Campus) thus cutting out the middleman. I've personally saved students hundreds of thousands of dollars. Needless to say, bookstores don't like me.

And before that I've worked for companies like Apple, Intuit (Quicken), and General Magic. Mostly as a product manager building products or doing R&D. I'm the kind of guy who calls it like I see it, and doesn't really put a spin on things. I see myself as someone who builds things and gets things done.

But the main thing that I want to say here is that I would NEVER work for a company that was engaged in the business of spyware or any such deceptive practice. It's goes against MY policy.

-K
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Ben Edelman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: rhetoric versus truth Reply with quote

That's an interesting and impressive bio.

But how can we reconcile with "would never work for a company that was engaged in ... any such deceptive practice" with the behaviors I linked to in my message a couple pages up? Recall that AJ software is being placed on users' computers without consent, or with "consent" that requires scrolling past dozens of fine print. How is this not "deceptive"?
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theCaptain
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's just say that I did my personal due diligence before I started, and I've been doing it since I've been here (over a month now).

-K
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi -K and welcome back in your new incarnation,

My apologies if i seemed to make a personal point but whilst you were the public face of "Ask Jeeves" at this forum unfortunetly its a case of "if the sh*t fits then you wear it".

Now yes that is an impressive bio but your only as good as your last deed in this life.Understandebly we all gotta make a living and earn a crust in life.I make mine by not deceiving/duping my customers/potential customers.

Enough of the rhetoric and back to brass tacks Wink

The reason you are now posting as yourself and not "Ask Jeeves" or commenting on behalf of the company is because your PR/upline know you are as guilty as sin to the allegations levelled by this discussion/original article.

They know afterall whats the point of counter argueing when you know that the venerable B Edelman will publish a whole heap of evidence to the contrary to blow holes in any defence you make Smile
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aquias
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thought people might find this interesting...it seems Cap'n Kirk didn't fall off the face of the earth...this is his response to Counterspy's explination of why AskJeeves products are flagged.

http://kirks-anti-spy.blogspot.com/
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fcukdat
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile

And to balance out the equation

http://sunbeltblog.blogspot.com/2005/09/askjeeves-question-hopefully-weve_12.html

Blame it on the affiliates again Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Here's another bit of good news today Wink

Class action suit filed against 180solutions in a simmilar vain to the ongoing one against Direct revenue.

Are you sitting comfortably "Captain Kirk" because part of the lawsuits relate to unauthorised installs by affiliate partners Shocked

Lets see if "blame it on the affiliate" holds up in court....
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aquias,

Great comment you wrote on Sunbeltblog. Big Thumb Up

Edit to add links to blog and comment:

http://sunbeltblog.blogspot.com/2005/09/askjeeves-response-to-our-whitepaper.html

Akk - I can't figure out how to link to the comment itself. Click on comment below the post.
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Last edited by suzi on Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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aquias
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank ya Suzi! Embarassed I appreciate it! Now...I just need to take a moment to re-read my comments...I can't stand finding typos!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

suzi wrote:
aquias,

Great comment you wrote on Sunbeltblog. Big Thumb Up


Seconded. Great post.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ask Jeeves takes great pride in the integrity of the Company’s Fun Web Products and family of My Search toolbars

I'd like to have a nickel for every time this cr*p broke $Big_Web_Based_App where I work and I got to spend an hour or so fixing it. And I do believe my users (well, most of them) when they tell me they've no idea where it came from.

Integrity my a...nevermind.
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aquias
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One side note...Suzi, for linking to the Haloscan blog comments, use Opera. It breaks the haloscan comments out with a link above them so you can copy/paste the link (you can even hook up an RSS feed via Opera to the comments section).

Opera is just a bit funny about properly updating how many comments are present and displaying all the new comments.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies for not posting sooner - but I do visit here quite often. The PR people are scared to death that someone is going to twist words around, and/or point press releases at forums where there might be a, um, less than unbiased outlook. The company has had too many experiences with people whose first call is to the press instead of AJ. In my books, if someone is holding out information for personal benefit, then they are not really a true warrior. You guys now have no excuse for not knowing who to call. Smile If you do find anything that I don’t already know about, not only will you get my heartfelt thanks, but I can probably also throw in a Smiley T-Shirt!

I do personally feel like a piece of meat surrounded by hungry wolves in this forum.

You know, I even tried to donate some of my personal money to Spyware Warrior because I use it daily to look up Rogue Spyware vendors and of course read the blogs to stay abreast of the industry. It personally makes my life easier and I think that the site rocks. But my money was no good here and it was returned. I’d say that was downright adversarial. Like I said before - I come from the Warrior side of the fence (Net Nanny) and fancy myself as a pseudo-warrior (albeit a moderate one). I’m willing to extend the olive branch but no-one is accepting. So now you might begin to understand my reluctance to “open the kimono” here.

I’m more than happy to talk 1 on 1 anytime.

k l a wr e n ce a t as k j e e v e s

-K
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fcukdat
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome back Kirk Smile

Have you dropped/sued any affiliates recently ?

Yes you have not had a warm welcome and with reason.We don't like stealth/driveby/misleading installs around here Wink

Were not saying all your installs have been by these means but some have been and more than likely still are Mad

To me if you use the afiliate business model then you are responsible for policing your distribution channels.

In other words we hold the software company responsible for their software installs reguardless of the source of the install.

Do not act surprised when you pay partners/affiliates per download that there are some unscrupulous people that bump there numbers(profits) up by using any method of installation going both good and bad Twisted Evil

Do you vet your affiliates yet ?

Is your company sueing the ones that Ben Edelman has already brought tolight as contraveaning your vaunted installation policies ?
http://sp.ask.com/docs/jeevesinc/policy_download.html

If you have'nt realised by now the internet is faceless,your affiliate could be russian mafia for all you know or some little script kiddie for all intents and purposes Shocked

So if i may point you back to Aquias comments
here http://www.haloscan.com/comments/alexeck/112670823518208419/#119487
& also here
http://netrn.net/spywareblog/archives/2005/09/12/the-answers-to-ask-jeeves-probably-not-the-ones-they-wanted/#comment-3610

Totally sums it up !
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aquias
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heya Cap'n! Welcome back!

This is like playing tag with the neighborhood kid who runs in his house and locks the door. You pop up, disappear, and then re-appear at the appropriate times.

I'll say, there is a reason you feel like a piece of meat here. You are. For all intents and purposes you came here touting that you are part of AskJeeves. Admirable on your part to step up to defend your current employer.

Still, by doing so you've also centered the attention on yourself as a "Point Man" for the spyware community. By making continued comments (and I believe I speak for us all here, it's nice to see someone reading these forums from a corporate perspective) you are going to continue to face questions from this community.

Speaking of questions...there are still several that hang around AJ. Now, I'd like to say that I would...even if it was sent to my e-mail, (no press here, I don't run a blog and work for a nursing home) like to get something other than the company rhetoric.

How are you policing your affiliates? How have your install practices changed? Ben Edelman has done extensive documentation on questionable practices of AJ (http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/installations/askjeeves-banner/). What are being done about those?

This isn't just about suing and putting your affiliates under. How are you making changes to the way YOU do business to clean up a "clouded" history of install practices?

If you've read these forums for a while, you know the hornets nest that the "Spyware Definitions" attempt raised. You know why it was raised as well...burden of proof. Show US, show me, show someone that you're policies are changing. Prove to us that your policing methods are working. Give us a REASON to start handing you our trust...prove a benefit to this community for laying off of AJ.

The problem that AJ, WhenU, and others will face when claiming change. Is that we've heard it all before. DR and 180Solutions are two recent companies that come to mind. Both claiming massive changes were done and a month later people were hammering them left and right for nefarious install practices.

We aren't going to back off and we aren't going to change. We'll stand steady and continue to question, scream, and pressure as we're able to make the internet "user safe".

I'm hoping that this time you're allowed to a bit more candid with us. And that this time you don't "Lock the door" until it's convienent to come back out.

Kirk...the offer is a real one, PM for an E-Mail address if you would like to talk in private. But I hope to keep this a public discussion.
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aquias
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two other things come to mind after a few moments break (and some much needed food).

1. Kirk, I can understand Spyware Warrior's reluctance to accept a donation from you. You are tied to a company with questionable install habits. This site policies such companies. There is a major conflict of interest presented right there.

2. Secondly, what we're saying isn't an attack on you. Granted, some of it is meant to get a response. But that's because we DESERVE a response. If you come from the "Warrior" perspective you understand why some of these posts are written and laced the way the are...not to mention personal flare is a must (Right PG?!).

Now...I'm still hoping for some kind of response so I'll go and quietly wait.
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paperghost
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aquias wrote:
(Right PG?!).


/ passing through

Oh, we're calm like a bomb.

// continues on his way
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mikey
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theCaptain wrote:

I do personally feel like a piece of meat surrounded by hungry wolves in this forum.


I think everyone can understand your predicament...it's very hard to defend bad practices.
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datababe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
But my money was no good here and it was returned. I’d say that was downright adversarial.

I really don't think it was meant to be personal or "adversarial", as you seem to have taken it. I think aquias hit the real reason squarely:

Quote:
1. Kirk, I can understand Spyware Warrior's reluctance to accept a donation from you. You are tied to a company with questionable install habits. This site policies such companies. There is a major conflict of interest presented right there.

As someone who does IT support in the financial services industry, I am hard wired to jump high into the air at the words "conflict of interest". For this website to accept donations from someone tied to a company with questionable install habits is as sure a conflict as...oh...say, if COAST accepted memberships (and donations) from 180Solutions and WhenU.

Oh, say, they did do that, didn't they? And look what happened.
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webmedic
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hm as somebody doing it tech stuff every day in the trenches I can say that any company that compromises a system in any way should be illegal. I dont care wheather they think it is beneficial for the end user or they do it simply because of greed in any event it is never ok to take advantage of another person for nay reason.
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gcobb
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

webmedic wrote:
hm as somebody doing it tech stuff every day in the trenches I can say that any company that compromises a system in any way should be illegal. I dont care wheather they think it is beneficial for the end user or they do it simply because of greed in any event it is never ok to take advantage of another person for nay reason.


I agree here. I, personally think any user shouldn't have any data collected until they notify the advertising company or whomever agreeing to such. I'm sure some people would do this. I hear too often "I don't care what they install on my computer, I don't have anything on there". The mentallity is rather lacking. If it slows your computer, accesses your data, installs software or tracks you it should be illegal and the companies should be help liable...like that's going to happen.
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blkwlnt64
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And 'AskJeeves' real name is 'Tom Delay'.
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wyrmrider
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: not appropriate in this forum Reply with quote

see terms of use and guidelines forum
not even in "talk about it forum"

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blkwlnt64
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BACK OFF! Remember the FIRST AMENDMENT when you make rightwing threats like that.
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Nick
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is not a political forum and no talk about politics is allowed. There are plenty of other places on the net to talk about that kind of stuff.

Do not post anymore relating to this and especially when it is meant in a derogitory way at a specific member of the forum.
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suzi
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blkwlnt64,

First Amendment or not, this forum has rules. Membership here is not a right. Anyone who violates the forum policies is subject to having their posts edited or deleted. Users violating forum policy are subject to being deactivated and/or banned. The forum policies are posted for all to see. If anyone doesn't like the policies, they should not come here.
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