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Vista? Think again!

 
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NoMoreSpyware67
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Vista? Think again! Reply with quote

Vista has the worst anti-spyware ever! Windows Vista still has:
* Spyware
* Adware
* Viruses
* Worms
and:
* Expolits
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tripkill201
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Vista? Think again! Reply with quote

NoMoreSpyware67 wrote:
Vista has the worst anti-spyware ever! Windows Vista still has:
* Spyware
* Adware
* Viruses
* Worms
and:
* Expolits

I know. That why I use the Vista skin for XP. Vista looks cool, that's it.
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olliver
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Vista? Think again! Reply with quote

NoMoreSpyware67 wrote:
Vista has the worst anti-spyware ever!

That's as easy as having the best anti-spyware integrated, because it's the first Vista version by Microsoft and there aren't any other Vista blends. An integer quantity of one (there's no sliced anti spyware) will always be both the best and worst [insert property here]. Wink

Anyway, for those who don't know what "NoMoreSpyware67" is referring to, here are some articles about the integrated Spyware package:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1917230,00.asp
http://news.com.com/2100-1029_3-6069464.html
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6050733.html

Quote:
Windows Vista still has:
* Spyware
* Adware
* Viruses
* Worms
and:
* Expolits

That doesn't explain why according to you Microsoft's Anti-Spyware solution be "the worst anti-spyware solution ever". Such a daring claim should really deserve a proper explanation, shouldn't it?

Generally, the notion that the integration of an anti-spyware application would automatically solve the malware/exploit problem on Windows is unrealistic, because it assumes a technical solution for a[n] [anti-]social problem [1]:
These programmes can only fight what they *know*. So logically, the detection rate has to be (100 - n)% (where n is the percentage of unknown samples). The necessity of daily signature updates and (from my perspective) the never ending stream of undetected malware, or variants of previously known malware clearly shows that it's the malware author, who's a step ahead and will always be. Also the software can do very little about the problem if the user isn't capable of recognising frequent sources of malware/exploits and learn from it. The information is around, a simple Google search is all that it takes for an unexperienced user to learn about potential hazards and what to do about it. But so long as this user considers his computer to be another multimedia device that runs by itself without interaction and knowledge about how the Internet works on a technical and social level, the problem will persist.

You really can't blame Microsoft for willful ignorance of some of their customers, who refuse to address risky behaviour by learning from their mistakes and happily click on every executable strangers send to them or visit shady websites with insecure browsers and/or Javascript turned on.

Olliver

---
[1] the core problem are people who rank financial gain higher as humans and are destined to reach their goal by any means possible. Not only spammers and malware peddlers think like this, that's why things like 419er scams are perfectly working.
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micaman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should focus your upset towards the malware writers, rogue websites...and your own neglect of proper security measures...long before you attack the maker of one of the software items on your machine - if you even use Vista at all. Much of the Microsoft attackers do not even use Microsoft products. And the ones who have...gave some free beta a try and made themselves an expert on the matter. It is starting to look more and more like "paid terrorists" to me!

Apple Quicktime lets many bad guys into your machine, yet users cry foul at Microsoft, not Apple. And Macs spread Malware to Windows, yet they do not care. Any big corporation today that is not on the "good guys" side in the Malware Wars are part of the problem. They are unethical to say the least!

Vista is one of the most secured operating systems on the market today...if you care enough to learn how to use it. This is no different then EVERY other O.S. out there today...or in the past!
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paperghost
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

micaman wrote:
Much of the Microsoft attackers do not even use Microsoft products. And the ones who have...gave some free beta a try and made themselves an expert on the matter.


A sweeping generalisation, and I'm not sure what sort of survey (if any) you're basing this on. There are plenty of people who use microsoft products and complain about them for various reasons on a daily basis. If they're not happy with it, they have every right to speak up.

Quote:
Apple Quicktime lets many bad guys into your machine, yet users cry foul at Microsoft, not Apple.


the main quicktime vulnerabilities that recently affected windows were cross platform and affected macs as well. apple took a lot of heat once word broke of this issue and a patch didn't take long from what I recall. I certainly don't remember lots of people kicking off at microsoft for what was an apple vulnerability.

in terms of spy/adware issues, the biggest problem recently with quicktime was its ability to open up websites using HREF tracks, which enabled attackers to overlay fake login bars on Myspace. Again, this would have potentially affected users of many different operating systems as they were using quicktime to target the service, rather than the OS.

Quote:
And Macs spread Malware to Windows, yet they do not care.


I'd say its more important to focus on the deluge of windows specific infections than what must be an utterly dwarfed total of infections that manage to leap from a mac to a windows box via email or LAN or whatever.

Even with a mac in the picture, you still need code that runs on a vulnerable windows OS in the first place for it to be hijacked.
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micaman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right, Paperghost.

My words were generalizations. I never meant to imply that they were anything but. I read hundreds of stories, comments and posts from the Unix, Linux and Mac crowds lately, that simply attack any Windows topics with generalizations as well, and I may be too quick to reply to Windows users who are upset, and rightly so.

I will better "check" myself before just jumping the gun and thinking all are part of "that crowd."

Confused
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olliver
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

micaman wrote:
Much of the Microsoft attackers do not even use Microsoft products. And the ones who have...gave some free beta a try and made themselves an expert on the matter.

Interesting claim. Can you please specify who these "attackers" are and which source you are citing from?
Quote:
It is starting to look more and more like "paid terrorists" to me!

What looks like "paid terrorists" to you?
Quote:
Apple Quicktime lets many bad guys into your machine, yet users cry foul at Microsoft, not Apple. And Macs spread Malware to Windows, yet they do not care.

You are distracting from the subject. What Apple Quicktime does or not does has no bearing on the discussion about the effectiveness of Vista's integrated Spyware application.
Quote:
Any big corporation today that is not on the "good guys" side in the Malware Wars are part of the problem. They are unethical to say the least!

The primary goal of a corporation is to generate revenue, thus there will always be a conflict with ethical questions, which will lower revenue (some methods are ruled out by policy that may be lucrative, but at other people's expense). To what degree a corporation is willing to trade revenue for behaving ethical is up to their individual situation. So there are many shades of grey to choose from.
Quote:
Vista is one of the most secured operating systems on the market today...if you care enough to learn how to use it. This is no different then EVERY other O.S. out there today...or in the past!

The fine people at Kaspersky have a different opinion:
Tom Espiner, ZDNet UK wrote:
After being roundly criticised over its security strategy in the past, Microsoft has done a lot of work to improve its approach and has been touting Vista as its most secure operating system. But Kaspersky confirmed that her analysts had found five ways to bypass Vista's UAC, and that malware writers will find more security holes.

http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Microsoft-partner-Vista-less-secure-than-XP/0,130061733,339274261,00.htm
Just as it has been said before: There's no technological solution to social problems. People will simply ignore good intentions that they don't understand and are in their way.

Olliver
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olliver
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

micaman wrote:
I read hundreds of stories, comments and posts from the Unix, Linux and Mac crowds lately, that simply attack any Windows topics with generalizations as well, and I may be too quick to reply to Windows users who are upset, and rightly so.

Why bashing strawmen all the time? Putting up claims without backing them with evidence does not add any value to the forums. They only raise the signal to noise ratio and have the potential of generating conflicts.

Olliver
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micaman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a notepet wrote:
Putting up claims without backing them with evidence does not add any value to the forums. They only raise the signal to noise ratio and have the potential of generating conflicts.



I have already answered your request with a response that "I will better check myself" - so any further attempt to clarify myself is moot.

I would add that upon looking over many of your posts, you simply state things without quoting sources. You inject your opinion without following your own demands.

While this does not bother me, my opinion seems to bother you. A forum is not a private diary, but a tool for discussion to better one's intelligence. Which is why 90% of the time...I will be reading threads and not posting in them. To learn is to listen and to listen is to be silent.

I am here to learn.

Your title and demands suggest that you are an expert...while I am simply a new member with *some* experience, of which, does give me an opinion too.

I hope I never reach the level of expert, but merely, continue to learn from the best in each field.
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olliver
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

micaman wrote:
a notepet wrote:
Putting up claims without backing them with evidence does not add any value to the forums. They only raise the signal to noise ratio and have the potential of generating conflicts.


I have already answered your request with a response that "I will better check myself" - so any further attempt to clarify myself is moot.

No it isn't. It would have shown that you actually think before you type and not make half baken statements mixed of mistaken articles and pure phantasy like your notion of the "Microsoft conspiracy".

Quote:
[snipped personal attack]

While this does not bother me, my opinion seems to bother you.

I call bullshit. I'm only interested in the discussion and couldn't care less about your personality. What you call "opinion" is actually written as a unchangable fact like:
micaman wrote:
Much of the Microsoft attackers do not even use Microsoft products. And the ones who have...gave some free beta a try and made themselves an expert on the matter.


Quote:
A forum is not a private diary, but a tool for discussion to better one's intelligence.

What some "micaman" thinks a forum has to be is entirely irrelevant to anyone else here, because that's something the administrators have to decide. but while we're at it, who is using the forum as a diary? Perhaps "micaman" cares to give some names?

Quote:
Which is why 90% of the time...I will be reading threads and not posting in them. To learn is to listen and to listen is to be silent.

I am here to learn.

To all appearences, "micaman"'s intentions and actual behaviour are the exact opposite. Marking an opinion as such and only presenting facts, where someone has an actual expertise in is a good start. Asking questions is an even better way to learn. By "micaman"'s posing as knowledgable man he demonstrated clue resistance. By evading the questions arising from his claims he demonstrated that he doesn't seem to care about learning but putting himself into the centre of attention.

Quote:
Your title and demands suggest that you are an expert...while I am simply a new member with *some* experience, of which, does give me an opinion too.

Why would anyone care about a title? Titles are entirely irrelevant in a discussion, except where some poseurs hope it might be a useful means to successfully present their silliness as facts, just by the magic of their "authority". "micaman" seems to have issues of conceiving of the simple concept that controverse opinions that go contrary to what is commonly believed to be true may be better accepted by adding evidence. No other expertise is required but the knowledge of how to do a proper research. Why "micaman" doesn't seem to be able to accomplish this simple task is a riddle to me.

Olliver
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micaman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="a notepet"]
Quote:
No it isn't.


I disagree.

Quote:
I call bullshit. I'm only interested in the discussion and couldn't care less about your personality.


OK. Sounds reasonable.

Quote:
What some "micaman" thinks a forum has to be is entirely irrelevant to anyone else here, because that's something the administrators have to decide.


Yes, I agree.

Quote:
To all appearences, "micaman"'s intentions and actual behaviour are the exact opposite.


I disagree. I have been reading posts for over seven months here, and recently decided to join. Since then, I have made very little posts...because of the fact that I am learning, which is a process. I did find "my" errors and replied to paperghost with such words.

Quote:
Why would anyone care about a title?


Titles give the *impression* of one's abilities, especially to new members.

Quote:
Why "micaman" doesn't seem to be able to accomplish this simple task is a riddle to me.


This is more typical of the research I do and the postings that I try to make:
http://spywarewarrior.com/viewtopic.php?t=25574&highlight=

And here are some respected security researchers with quotable comments, along with opinions from both sides of the fence, if you care to continue...on topic, you know, back to Vista security.

Blackhat comments on Vista Heap:

http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-usa-06/BH-US-06-Marinescu.pdf


Vista is more secure than Mac:

http://erratasec.blogspot.com/2007/02/bill-gates-fights-back-against-evil.html

In an interview with Computerworld, Zovi said, “I have found the code quality, at least in terms of security, to be much better overall in Vista than Mac OS X 10.4. It is obvious from observing affected components in security patches that Microsoft’s Security Development Lifecycle (SDL) has resulted in fewer vulnerabilities in newly-written code.”

For years, Apple devotees have crowed that their operating system is far safer than Windows. If Zovi is to be believed, that’s no longer the case.

He’s not alone in his beliefs. Zovi won his prize at the CanSecWest security conference in Vancouver a few weeks ago, and other attendees echo his thoughts.

Dragos Ruiu, the principal organizer of security conferences including CanSecWest, told Computerworld, “I hear a lot of people bragging about how easy it is to break into Macs.”

And Theo de Raadt, OpenBSD project leader and an attendee at the conference said one reason that Mac exploits aren’t well publicized is that Apple is “extremely litigious when people do find stuff.”
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