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Tokar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supply and demand my friend Smile.
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Oldfrog
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikey wrote:
Ya mean folks can actually get paid for this stuff????

Apparently so.

Well, it makes sense. There are some products that I wouldn't test without being paid to (waste of time, otherwise) and some forums that I wouldn't work on even if paid (my parents were married. Laughing
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do more than just test stuff. I have a lot more responsibilities that I do not wish to disclose.
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Oldfrog
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relax, Chewy.

I would be happy to test ST as I think it is a pretty good app. At the moment I don't recommend Ring 3 apps but have hopes that it may develop further.

Likewise, I would be happy to work on the ST forum if I were interested in Ring 3 apps.
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mikey
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...if I were interested in Ring 3 apps...


I don't mean to be a bother but do you suppose you could elaborate on that a bit? I'm sure there are many around who don't understand what Ring3 or even Ring0 means. I myself don't quite understand the aversion as noted.
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Oldfrog
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't so much an aversion as a lack of faith.

Ring 0 is complete hardware access. Ring 3 is the lowest level of user access. There is no shortage today of malware which installs and runs with kernel access, or even true ring 0 as rootkits.

Before my last post I updated ST to the latest and greatest to be sure that things hadn't changed. A couple of things happened:
  1. I was prompted to restart the application. This immediately tells me that there were no changes to the Current_control_set, or its backups, in the registry, else I would have had to restart the system to invoke the changes.
  2. I start the application and find that it is running with local user ownership. If I am a Limited User then the app runs with permissions inherited from Limited User so has no write permissions on anything not in my documents and settings. I am better off if I am an Administrator, but still not as well off as I would be if the app had started as a service with NT AUTHORITY/SYSTEM ownership and permissions.

A simplistic way of looking at this is that ST is an API level program with no access to the kernel that it is not explicitly granted.

This reduced capability is only that in XP, but is an absolute bar to becoming certified for Vista. I like the looks and functions of the program, but it isn't quite there yet.
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What ring 0 applications exist? Any which are of high quality and free?
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not particularly clear on the whole ring heirarchy or protection. Ive been visiting and searching pages for information but none of the ones I have been looking at seem to provide a clear picture which I allows me to properly visualize what it all means.

Does Ring0 mean that the resident scanner requires a system driver to monitor everything?

Spyware Terminator installs a few system services for all of its protection...
"C:\Program Files\Spyware Terminator\SpywareTerminatorShield.exe" - run as start type 0x00000003
"C:\Program Files\Spyware Terminator\sp_rsser.exe" - run as start type 0x00000002
"C:\Program Files\WinClamAVShield\sp_clamsrv.exe" - run as start type 0x00000002
"C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\sp_rsdrv2.sys" - run as start type 0x00000001
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chewyfood wrote:
Im not particularly clear on the whole ring heirarchy or protection. Ive been visiting and searching pages for information but none of the ones I have been looking at seem to provide a clear picture which I allows me to properly visualize what it all means.

Does Ring0 mean that the resident scanner requires a system driver to monitor everything?

Spyware Terminator installs a few system services for all of its protection...
"C:\Program Files\Spyware Terminator\SpywareTerminatorShield.exe" - run as start type 0x00000003
"C:\Program Files\Spyware Terminator\sp_rsser.exe" - run as start type 0x00000002
"C:\Program Files\WinClamAVShield\sp_clamsrv.exe" - run as start type 0x00000002
"C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\sp_rsdrv2.sys" - run as start type 0x00000001



Boy I wish I could edit posts Razz...I posted that information wrong:

Here is the correct info:
"C:\Program Files\Spyware Terminator\SpywareTerminatorShield.exe" - run as a user process
"C:\Program Files\WinClamAVShield\sp_clamsrv.exe" - run as start type 0x00000003
"C:\Program Files\Spyware Terminator\sp_rsser.exe" - run as start type 0x00000002
"C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\sp_rsdrv2.sys" - run as start type 0x00000001
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Oldfrog
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Here is the correct info:
"C:\Program Files\Spyware Terminator\SpywareTerminatorShield.exe" - run as a user process
"C:\Program Files\WinClamAVShield\sp_clamsrv.exe" - run as start type 0x00000003
"C:\Program Files\Spyware Terminator\sp_rsser.exe" - run as start type 0x00000002
"C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\sp_rsdrv2.sys" - run as start type 0x00000001

Interesting, and I may have to retract some of my earlier statements.

I had an earlier version of ST installed from when I first saw you mention it here. I updated it last night through the GUI to 1.5.0.740, which it still tells me is the most recent available. It then asked me to restart the application, which I did. Following that the only ST processes running were SpywareTerminator.Exe (the center) and Spywareterminatorshield.Exe, both running under my local user account.

Since this does not correlate to what you posted two possibilities come to mind:
  1. There is a newer version which is not obtainable through the update facility
  2. The other processes require a reboot to start (in which case I should have been prompted to reboot, not restart the app)
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Tarq57
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldfrog,
#1 is correct. There was a bug in the updater of the version you have, and one or two of the versions subsequent, which prevented program updates.
Current version is 1.9.3.142.
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not aware of the 1.5 update bug. I guess this would explain why there is still a high number of people using 1.5 versions (~16%).
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Tarq57
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://forum.spywareterminator.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=723
http://forum.spywareterminator.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=1875
Couple of links to indicate the problem, it's not rare.
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mikey
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI

Boot Order

Boot Boot Bus Extender 7 sptd
Boot Boot Bus Extender 2 PCI PCI Bus Driver
Boot Boot Bus Extender 6 ohci1394 Texas Instruments OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller
Boot Boot Bus Extender 3* isapnp PnP ISA/EISA Bus Driver
Boot System Bus Extender 4 IntelIde
Boot System Bus Extender 8 MountMgr
Boot System Bus Extender 9 Ftdisk Volume Manager Driver
Boot System Bus Extender 10 Diskperf
Boot System Bus Extender 12 dmload
Boot System Bus Extender 13 dmio Logical Disk Manager Driver
Boot System Bus Extender 2 PartMgr
Boot System Bus Extender n/a* hotcore2 hotcore2
Boot SCSI miniport 25 atapi Standard IDE/ESDI Hard Disk Controller
Boot SCSI Class 2 Disk Disk Driver
Boot FSFilter Infrastructure 1 FltMgr FltMgr
Boot Filter 7 PxHelp20
Boot Base 1 KSecDD
Boot NDIS Wrapper n/a* NDIS NDIS System Driver
Boot PnP Filter* 2* agp440 Intel AGP Bus Filter
Boot Network* 2* Mup Mup
Boot n/a* n/a* SONYPVM1 Sony Memory Stick Driver(SONYPVM1)
System System Bus Extender 14 lbrtfdc
System Primary disk 4 Sfloppy
System SCSI CDROM Class 1 AFS2K AFS2k
System SCSI CDROM Class 2 Cdrom CD-ROM Driver
System Filter 5 Changer
System Filter 6 Cdaudio
System Filter 6 Cdr4_2K
System Filter 6 Cdralw2k
System Boot file system n/a* Fs_Rec
System Base 1 Null
System Base 2 Beep
System Keyboard Port 4 i8042prt i8042 Keyboard and PS/2 Mouse Port Driver
System Keyboard Port 5 kbdhid Keyboard HID Driver
System Pointer Class 1 Mouclass Mouse Class Driver
System Keyboard Class 1 Kbdclass Keyboard Class Driver
System Video n/a* sglfb
System Video n/a* tga
System Video Save 1 VgaSave
System Video Save n/a* mnmdd
System File system n/a* fwdrv Kerio Personal Firewall Driver
System File System n/a* InCDFatRec Ahead InCDFat FSD Recognizer
System File system n/a* InCDrec
System File system n/a* Msfs
System File system n/a* Npfs
System Streams Drivers 1 RasAcd Remote Access Auto Connection Driver
System PNP_TDI 4 Tcpip TCP/IP Protocol Driver
System PNP_TDI 5 NetBT NetBios over Tcpip
System NetBIOSGroup 1 NetBIOS NetBIOS Interface
System Parallel arbitrator 1 Parport Parallel port driver
System Extended base 1 Serial Serial port driver
System PCI Configuration 1* PCIDump
System n/a* n/a* Aspi32
System PNP Filter* 7* InCDPass InCDPass
System PnP Filter* 8* incdrm InCD Reader
System Network* 5* MRxSmb MRXSMB
System Network* 4* Rdbss Rdbss
System Pnp Filter* 1* redbook Digital CD Audio Playback Filter Driver
System n/a* n/a* sp_rsdrv2 Spyware Terminator Driver 2
System n/a* n/a* swmidi Microsoft Software Synthesizer (WDM)
System n/a* n/a* wdmaud Microsoft WDM Virtual Wave Driver (WDM)
Automatic System Bus Extender 3 PCIIde
Automatic System Bus Extender 1 Pcmcia
Automatic Event log n/a* Eventlog Event Log
Automatic TDI n/a* AFD AFD Networking Support Environment
Automatic TDI n/a* Dhcp DHCP Client
Automatic TDI n/a* Dnscache DNS Client
Automatic TDI n/a* LmHosts TCP/IP NetBIOS Helper Service
Automatic PlugPlay n/a* PlugPlay Plug and Play
Automatic SpoolerGroup n/a* Spooler Print Spooler
Automatic Extended base 2 HPFECP13
Automatic Extended base 2 ParVdm
Automatic extended base 8 HidUsb Microsoft HID Class Driver
Automatic n/a* n/a* 44ADFFA2 44ADFFA2
Automatic n/a* n/a* Alerter Alerter
Automatic n/a* n/a* Browser Computer Browser
Automatic n/a* n/a* dmserver Logical Disk Manager
Automatic n/a* n/a* Fips Fips
Automatic n/a* n/a* HidServ HID Input Service
Automatic n/a* n/a* IAS
Automatic n/a* n/a* InCDsrv InCD Helper
Automatic n/a* n/a* lanmanserver Server
Automatic NetworkProvider* n/a* lanmanworkstation Workstation
Automatic n/a* n/a* MASPINT
Automatic n/a* n/a* NtmsSvc Removable Storage
Automatic n/a* n/a* PersFw Kerio Personal Firewall
Automatic n/a* n/a* Pml Driver HPZ12 Pml Driver HPZ12
Automatic n/a* n/a* PolicyAgent IPSEC Policy Agent
Automatic n/a* n/a* ProtectedStorage Protected Storage
Automatic n/a* n/a* RemoteAccess Routing and Remote Access
Automatic n/a* n/a* RemoteRegistry Remote Registry Service
Automatic n/a* n/a* RpcSs Remote Procedure Call (RPC)
Automatic n/a* n/a* SamSs Security Accounts Manager
Automatic n/a* n/a* Schedule Task Scheduler
Automatic n/a* n/a* SchedulingAgent
Automatic n/a* n/a* seclogon RunAs Service
Automatic Network* n/a* SENS System Event Notification
Automatic n/a* n/a* sp_rssrv Spyware Terminator Realtime Shield Service
Automatic n/a* n/a* StiSvc Still Image Service
Automatic n/a* n/a* TrkWks Distributed Link Tracking Client
Automatic n/a* n/a* WinMgmt Windows Management Instrumentation
Automatic n/a* n/a* wuauserv Automatic Updates
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does it take to get a product listed in the "Trustworthy" product list on the rogue page?

I ask because I of course would like to see ST on that list in the future...
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Oldfrog
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When choosing anti-spyware protection, you should rely on products with deserved reputations and proven track records. That means avoiding the new and unknown, and not succumbing to impulse buys of anti-spyware products that you see on the Net, esp. those included in the "rogue/suspect" list on this page or advertised on Google.

Quote:
Note to Vendors: please do not email me and request to be added to the above list of "recommended" products. This list of "recommended" products is based on extensive experience with the listed products and is not a list to which one can apply for admission.
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what does SpywareWarrior define "products with deserved reputations and proven track records" as?

Meaning...
are we talking about X number of years as a respected application? high ratings on a number of download sites? full product reviews from PCMagazine or the sort?
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Nick
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only Eric can answer that question and it may not be something that will be answered.

Many people try to make their programs fit what they think would be considered a "trustworthy" application but miss the point. The point is not to make a program to try an be trustworthy or good but to make a good program. One that thousands of people recommend to others without any benefit from their recommendation other than to share what they believe to be a good program. A program that is also good and reliable in removing most malware and has regular updates. One that doesn't have employees asking what the criteria is so they can try to make the program fit the criteria.

Focus on making a good program and the rest will fall in place. If you focus on trying to make others think you have a good program but they don't actually believe it is, then you will get nowhere.
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha. Thanks.
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure if this is official...

I was told ST2.0 was meant to be released today (July 4th), but I got a message saying it would be released monday or tuesday?

There are no press releases or updates to our homepage...but some user found 2.0 by looking for updates with our official download links, one of which is used for beta releases. And if it is there, I think it was meant for release...

Im not sure...

But I made a news post of the release in this forum, since the download link is an official beta link Razz...
http://forum.spywareterminator.com/Default.aspx?g=topics&f=5
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roger_m
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chewyfood that link is wrong but I found the thread on the beta 2.0 here http://forum.spywareterminator.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=2079

I've just installed it and am trying it out now
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the post had to be deleted.

The release is not official.

You can read Dusen's message here:

http://forum.spywareterminator.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&m=13680#13680

The download link has been removed from viewing...
Basically, there are still some issues with some languages from what I was told. So this 2.0 beta is considered to be a "leak".

So, just enjoy it until the final beta comes out Smile.
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roger_m
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came accross Dusen's post after posting that link here.

Anyway I'm currently using sT 2 beta and I like it so far.

The Internet Protecion with the extra cookies and favorites scan is a nice feature. However when I downloaded the required Web Security Guard it did not install properly - but an uninstall of Crawler Toolar and reinstalling Web Secuity Guard fixed that.

I think my Cralwer Toolbar install was somewhat damaged as various A/S apps still detect it as spyware and may have corrupted it.
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roger_m wrote:
I came accross Dusen's post after posting that link here.

Anyway I'm currently using sT 2 beta and I like it so far.

The Internet Protecion with the extra cookies and favorites scan is a nice feature. However when I downloaded the required Web Security Guard it did not install properly - but an uninstall of Crawler Toolar and reinstalling Web Secuity Guard fixed that.

I think my Cralwer Toolbar install was somewhat damaged as various A/S apps still detect it as spyware and may have corrupted it.


There are some problems with CT and WSG...which is why an official release has been postponed until Monday or tuesday.

Today is vacation for US team, while Thursday and Friday are vacation days for the Czech team. So Monday or Tuesday it is.

So just report any problems you have on the Spyware Terminator forums for cataloguing so I can report the problems internally.
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, we just officially released Spyware Terminator 2.0 beta: http://forum.spywareterminator.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=2126
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Lusher
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if this is whole ring zero versus ring three thing is so clearly distinguished. I'm pretty sure at least part of ST is ring zero.

These days you can't be an antivirus or antispyware without at least a driver of some sort (as Mike shows in his bootorder), so technically ST IS definitely ring zero. Parts of the implementation might not be, but it takes more expertise than I have to figure out what parts.
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Oldfrog
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lusher wrote:
I'm not sure if this is whole ring zero versus ring three thing is so clearly distinguished. I'm pretty sure at least part of ST is ring zero.

It is definitely difficult to distinguish. You really need advanced knowledge of Windows and a process analyzer to collect the data.

Quote:
These days you can't be an antivirus or antispyware without at least a driver of some sort (as Mike shows in his bootorder), so technically ST IS definitely ring zero. Parts of the implementation might not be, but it takes more expertise than I have to figure out what parts.

The real key is what the driver does (or does not) do. The real time monitors may or may not be ring 0, but we do know that the scanner is not as it runs in 98SE.
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can attempt to find out all the information for you guys.

Since I am not one of the developers, can you please provide the questions as you would ask a software developer (of the security sort)?

I will be happy to ask them.
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Lusher
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldfrog wrote:
Lusher wrote:
I'm not sure if this is whole ring zero versus ring three thing is so clearly distinguished. I'm pretty sure at least part of ST is ring zero.

It is definitely difficult to distinguish. You really need advanced knowledge of Windows and a process analyzer to collect the data.

Quote:
These days you can't be an antivirus or antispyware without at least a driver of some sort (as Mike shows in his bootorder), so technically ST IS definitely ring zero. Parts of the implementation might not be, but it takes more expertise than I have to figure out what parts.

The real key is what the driver does (or does not) do. The real time monitors may or may not be ring 0, but we do know that the scanner is not as it runs in 98SE.


I always thought by definition any drivers are ring zero. Anyway...

You might be right about running in win98.

As for the real time part it's easy to check that they hook the SSDT (at least for the 2.0 beta), that definitely counts as ring zero. A trick they can't do in vista or so I read.

Not sure how that works in win98. I also see this "Note that the real-time scan does not function on Win98 and 64 bit systems." which fits I guess with the idea that the realtime part IS ring zero.
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Lusher
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikey wrote:
Ya mean folks can actually get paid for this stuff????



Yes, I love getting paid for such work.
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where do you work Lusher?
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THUNDERxRAGE
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is sure a long thread! Shocked

I've only read page one and two...

Okay, did Chewyfood said he isn't associated by the company and now the truth is out of him actually being with the company?

Anywayz, is the Spyware Terminator safe now? I want to add it to the list of what I have.
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roger_m
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THUNDERxRAGE wrote:
Okay, did Chewyfood said he isn't associated by the company and now the truth is out of him actually being with the company?


If you follow this thread you will see that he only recently been hired.


And yes Spyware Terminator is safe and is one of the best free anti spyware apps available.
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THUNDERxRAGE
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is nice. It was a sure fight to remove it off the "rouge list". LoL
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, now I am affiliated Smile.
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THUNDERxRAGE
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How were you hired? Was Crawler impressed with your support? That is amazing.

Oh, Crawler, pick me too! Razz
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Tokar
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THUNDERxRAGE wrote:
How were you hired? Was Crawler impressed with your support? That is amazing.

Oh, Crawler, pick me too! Razz


Pretty much...
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Oldfrog
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, this is what the rogue list has to say about ST:
Quote:
Note on SpywareTerminator: We originally listed Spyware Terminator on this page out of concerns that Crawler, the company behind the product, had established connections with IBIS, a well known adware distributor responsible for such adware programs as Wintools, Websearch, & Huntbar. Although we found no problems in our initial testing with Spyware Terminator, and while the vendor itself announced that it was exiting the adware business (1), we decided out of caution to impose a three month probation period before we would consider re-testing and, if warranted, de-listing the the product from the Rogue/Suspect list. During that three month probation period we monitored the behavior of IBIS and Crawler. At the end of the three month probation period we re-tested Spyware Terminator, again finding no problems serious enough to justify listing the program on this page. As the vendor involved has not been involved in the distribution of adware for many months, and as the program itself exhibits no problems serious enough to warrant mention on this page, we have decided to de-list Spyware Terminator from the Rogue/Suspect list and can no longer regard the program to be "rogue/suspect."

Note: not to be confused with Spyware X-terminator from Stompsoft

Domains: spywareterminator.com, spyterm.com, crawler.com

[A: 12-5-05 / U: 3-9-06]

As you can see from that, getting ST removed from the list was not a fight. The vendor applied for removal providing justification, the app was evaluated, a probation was imposed, it was reevaluated and removed.
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Lusher
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Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Last Visit: 23 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chewyfood wrote:
Where do you work Lusher?


I like many people in forums like this are paid for contract work. For beta-testing etc.
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Oldfrog
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chewyfood wrote:
Supply and demand my friend

I am getting the uncomfortable feeling that the demand may exceed the supply. I got an email today congratulating me on my MS-MVP status and my online accomplishments which also invited me to respond to a job offer. The offer was from a company called Xacti Corp. The first thing that struck me about their corporate site was an obvious reference to Crawler LLC. Clicking on their Products link shows Spyware Terminator as one of their software offerings. This looked interesting so I continued following links and found the Terms of Use for their "funutilities" line of software which included the following at the bottom of the page:
Quote:
2007 Crawler, LLC. All rights reserved. Crawler is a trademark of Crawler, LLC, one of a family of companies in the Xacti Group.

Back at the corporate site I pulled up the list of Current US job openings. Wow! Look at all the Freelance Copywriter jobs! Even better, look at the job responsibilities which include:
Quote:
Research and write original articles on assigned topics for one or more of our many websites, and contribute to blogs and forums related to your areas of interest

I am old enough to have been around the block a time or two, and clearly understand that the bold copy above spells P-I-M-P.

Still, all the software offerings are advertised as being free for the download. That only leaves the question of where the revenue comes from. Yep, gotta wonder about that.
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