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Vista Will Kill You With Security Prompts
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Nick
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Vista Will Kill You With Security Prompts Reply with quote

I haven't really looked much at Vista since I have more than enough things to do, but I am keeping tabs on it. One of the new security features will be that even the administrator account won't have complete control over everything. For actions that might be a threat to the computer, you have to allow the action before it happens.

Example picture of prompt

Then after giving permission to delete the shortcut that could bring ruin to your computer Rolling Eyes you get another prompt to allow the operation to delete the shortcut.

example 2

This means that malware won't be able to install even if you are in the admin account because you have to allow it to do whatever it needs to do. Unfortunately, if people are going to be prompted more than once just to delete a shortcut on the desktop, then people will quickly learn to hit allow without reading what it says just to get rid of it. I'm sure people will look for a way to get rid of the prompt any way they can, even if they have to go back to XP. I can handle some prompts but it sounds like Vista will bring new meaning to pop up hell.

So what about something more complicated like installing a program? I don't have Vista to play with, but this is from someone who does(and where the example of deleting the Firefox shortcut came from). Scroll down a bit to get to the user account protection.
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5308_05.asp
Quote:
What if you're doing something a bit more complicated? Well, lucky you, the dialogs stack right up, one after the other, in a seemingly never-ending display of stupidity. Indeed, sometimes you'll find yourself unable to do certain things for no good reason, and you click Allow buttons until you're blue in the face. It will never stop bothering you, unless you agree to stop your silliness and leave that file on the desktop where it belongs. Mark my words, this will happen to you. And you will hate it.


Sounds like it will be a nightmare. Once malware gets on the computer, it'll take 30 prompts to get rid of it as well.

Edit to add: Looks like it it gets worse as you can't do anything else until allow or deny a prompt.

Quote:
It actually gets worse. In his review of the latest build, Thurrott points out that Microsoft security people found a bug in the original that spoofed the cursor. It hid the real cursor under a fake one and when the user clicked it thinking that they were canceling a screen, they were actually accepting it thereby allowing malware to install. In order to combat this, Microsoft currently has the dialog boxes pop up in the Secure Desktop mode, meaning everything goes black except the dialog box thereby preventing the user from doing anything else until the dialog box is addressed. Imagine that happening over and over again.


One of the comments from here: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/04/microsoft_vista.html
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Gary R
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it was 3162 who used to have a signature that said
Quote:
If you think it's bad now wait till Longhorn


How right he was.

As it says in the article, this isn't security for the user, it's security for M$, so they can say "you allowed it, so we're not responsible" when your box gets flooded with spyware.

Just an updated version of the old lawyers "weasel words" ploy.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'll be kicking it old skool with all my boxes running Linux by the time Vista rolls around. Xp was okay, but enough is enough for this crazy cat.
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Mrkvonic
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
Well, I will wait at least 6 months before I consider switching to Vista, if at all. The only thing that bothers me about Linux is that as a gamer my options are severely limited. But if push comes to shove, I'll stay with good ole games that run still and will be happy for the next 3-4 years using XP.
After that, we'll see...
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hornet777
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like Vista turns a computer into a 35 pound paperweight; that's ok, we didn't want to actually use it anyway, right? Smile

That's mainly what bothers me about Linux too Mrkvonic; I don't know it that well, know all its ins-and-outs so to speak, so everyone else on a Linux platform in principle at least could take complete advantage, and I'd never know the difference.

I grew up on DOS, so Win is much more familiar, and at this point, I simply don't have the time to learn another OS with as much familiarity and intimacy as I do M$'s stuff. It bites, but that's where I am...
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Mrkvonic
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
I'm using Linux.
I have Suse installed in dual boot on one machine plus I run various distros in VMWare on some other machines. I have tried Helix, Puppy, Knoppix, Ubuntu, Suse, maybe some others. All in all, it's not very different, unless you want to compile your own packages.
That's where it really matters.
But you can try linuxfromscratch (google for urls). There's a whole book how to build your own distro, how to compile binaries etc.
In daily work though, the GUI is pretty much the same and you don't see cardinal differences. But as a gamer . . . that's the true problem.
Give it a try.
For starters, try live cds (Suse and Knoppix are great), then try to install one in VMWare under Windows. You will see it's no black magic.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paperghost wrote:
Well I'll be kicking it old skool with all my boxes running Linux by the time Vista rolls around. Xp was okay, but enough is enough for this crazy cat.


Agreed. XP Pro is as far as i go too ESPECIALLY since Microsoft cowardly announced a retreat completely to support and has not any ambition as a tech industry to re-writing 98/Me as they and their customers deserve at least once.

I also just read yesterday and it's all over the radio where Microsoft shares are dropping on the market. They have only themselves and business management to blame for NOT LISTENING to thei consumers.

Perhaps X-Box would be a better undertaking for them to spend the most time on anymore since it appears they already lean strongly to that direction anyway.

Vista IMHO is only another attempt to throw up another smoke-screen to ignore and neglect the other OS's problems instead of meeting them head-on and perfecting on what they started in the first place with 98/Me. With HIPS like System Safety Monitor and likely others, they can no longer hide behind the hypocrisy that those models can't be secured. HogWash and they know it and now the market reflects that same opinion.
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hornet777
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reportedly, 2k and XP support will end next year too, unless they extend it; I think that 2k will get the axe regardless though.

Easter, this is not a criticism, but I really don't understand your fascination with the DOS-based Win platforms. Why should M$ "re-write" them? In other words, what's so special about DOS that it merits rebuilding the graphical part?

IMO, and even though I myself run 98 (along with a very good portion of my clients) still and appreciate DOS, actually think that NT is a better platform overall; its a lot like Linux, if you ever look at the boot files, memory architecture, device-orientation, et cetra, and is far and away more robust overall than any DOS platform could be.

Truth be known, Linux shares NT's basic vulnerabilities for this very reason as well; no one has yet made a bullet-proof OS, and it it weren't for networking, security issues would cease to exist.... and all this is true for plain-DOS as well. This, spoken by someone who first connected to the net via DOS, with scripts I wrote myself.

Just curious. Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEXT YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The %#@$%^)! They should sell Vista at the lower new computer install price.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I see of Vista, the more I'm convinced I will never own a copy. As much as I enjoy working with the older systems, learning to work with and maintain a PC with Vista doesn't look like something I want to do. More hassle than it's worth.
I can't help but compare the changes in PCs and operating systems to the ones that cars have been thru. It used to be (for me) that tuning and modifying a powerful engine was half the fun of owning one. (Remembering how a test drive always involved opening up that big 4 barrel and judging how well you did by how hard it planted you back into the seat.) Now there's so little the average person can do, unless he has a pile of money for specialized equipment and tools. While I still do most of my own maintenance and repair, it's not enjoyable anymore.
PCs are getting that way, at least windows is. While I can and do maintain XP units for people, I'm enjoying it much less than I used to. It's the same for me as opening the hood on a new car, and trying to figure out what all that extra junk on top of the engine is for. I still work on cars for people once in a while, but once they get newer than a certain year, I turn the job down. If Vista does become most people's operating system, I'll probably stop servicing PCs. Keeping up with new threats and developments is already taking much more of my time than I can afford it to. I just can't spare the time to learn a whole new mass of bloat that IMO, serves no purpose to the user, only to have to do it again in a couple years.
As for M$ and what they choose to support, I can accept change as a part of progress, if it's for the better. What I don't accept is planned obsolescense for the purpose of parting you from your wallet. I also won't accept a system that gives others control over my system, eg DRM. I won't tolerate a system that I can't completely control or one that tries to prevent me from accessing any file I choose. That's why I won't go farther than 98 with windows. It's not important to me what M$ chooses to support. What they call support is of questionable value at best.
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wyrmrider
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suport many systems that do not have enough "push back in the seat "horsepower to run xp much less vista
they do fine at word processing on a network
my spare Toshiba laptop is 486- 24 meg ram new fast hard drive but no further upgrades possible- nice screen great battery loife
works fine with the apps it came with
runs best with DOS and Wordstar
windows 98 ok also

I can boot edit and print a memo faster on the laptop than it takes to boot the desktop with xp
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suport many systems that do not have enough "push back in the seat "horsepower to run xp much less vista
they do fine at word processing on a network
my spare Toshiba laptop is 486- 24 meg ram new fast hard drive but no further upgrades possible- nice screen great battery loife
works fine with the apps it came with
runs best with DOS and Wordstar
windows 98 ok also

I can boot edit and print a memo faster on the laptop than it takes to boot the desktop with xp
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Reportedly, 2k and XP support will end next year too, unless they extend it; I think that 2k will get the axe regardless though.


Hornet777, I'm curious where you heard or read that, especially about XP? I read a lot of tech sites but had not heard that one.

If that's truly the case I might be going to Linux, too.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick question. I last used Lynux on my XBox about 15 months ago(Debian/sarge?) and all I can remember about it was how it was a pain in the arse to program in things so apt-get install would work or having to mess about with Tar balls to install things or something like that. Is it still like this or is it very user friendly now?
ps It was fun stuffing Bill-- Xbox as a computer with Lynux ha ha.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Linux is almost ready for prime time Reply with quote

Haven't posted here in a while, but been lurking lots. Smile

Just wanted to chime in as a computer tech who supports Windows PC's almost exclusively but now uses Linux. I dumped XP because I got tired of phoning MS whenever I changed components. Bleah. Don't want to think of what Vista will entail. Linux has matured. Most admin functions can be performed in a GUI interface now. The learning curve is tolerable.

FWIW, I run PCLinuxOS on my main computer which is an Athlon 1.7 and Puppy Linux or DSmallLinux on my P233 laptop. All perform admirably. I have Win98 and 2000 on other partitions and I also run Win2K inside VMWare player for app testing and malware hunting.

Vista? I read it stands for "Virus, Intrusion, Spyware, Trojan and Adware Operating System". Smile DRM + DEP + WGA + UAP + new acronym du jour = NOTHANKS.
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Nick
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Support for XP and 2000 follows the same life cycle as all MS products. Five years for home and 10 for business. That's for mainstream support. After mainstream support, there is extended support. That's what Win 98 is in right now. For most people, there is no discernable difference between mainstream and extended support.

Win 2000 is a total business product and follows a 10 year life cycle. so it will be supported until at least 2010. Xp Pro is also a business platform and will be supported until at least 2011. Home support is 5 years, so XP Home will pass the 5 year support window later this year and enter into the extended phase. For most people, no one will notice anything. In fact, it is most likely that MS will extend the mainstream support for XP Home since their replacement won't be out yet.

So nobody needs to run out and learn Linux in the next few months because XP will be phased out.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigos wrote:
Quick question. I last used Lynux on my XBox about 15 months ago(Debian/sarge?) and all I can remember about it was how it was a pain in the arse to program in things so apt-get install would work or having to mess about with Tar balls to install things or something like that. Is it still like this or is it very user friendly now?
ps It was fun stuffing Bill-- Xbox as a computer with Lynux ha ha.


Linux is alot better than it used to be, but it's still not as user friendly as XP. For example, if you get a new scanner and hook it up to the computer, XP will see that something new has been added and start the scanners and cameras wizard. Betwen that and the install disc you'll get with the scanner with drivers for XP, it shouldn't be too hard to get it working. For Linux, it's unlikely you'll have Linux drivers on the install disc. Maybe whatever version of Linux you have will figure out what it needs to do to get the scanner to work, but most likely you'll have to do some legwork on your own to get the drivers you need. Calling the manufacturer of the scanner most likely will get them saying they don't support Linux and can't help you.

Installing programs isn't as easy as well. Those tarballs you mentioned are like a zip file. A way to compress files. The tar file contains what you need to add a program, but you'll have to put the files where they need to go in order for it to work. On the other hand, uninstalling a program is much easier. You just delete the files and that is it. Linux has no registry to worry about.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can handle some prompts but it sounds like Vista will bring new meaning to pop up hell.

now you know what microsucks was trying to buy a spyware vendor last year!!! Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
(Remembering how a test drive always involved opening up that big 4 barrel and judging how well you did by how hard it planted you back into the seat.) Now there's so little the average person can do, unless he has a pile of money for specialized equipment and tools. While I still do most of my own maintenance and repair, it's not enjoyable anymore.


Those were fun times as well as learning the best performance techniques. Remember you could do something as simple as add a dual-point distributor and after setting the gap you could fly down the road with double the performance and speed from stock without the hestitation at high RPM. Yep i been there myself and had a great time adding a edelbrock aluminum manifold with a Holley and if you were game install a 486 lift 320 duration CAM and you had a boat that would rock ar idle or blast off like a rocker. That mention you done really brings out the best of times i remember when working on them. Thanks Wink

My 98SE still outperforms XP Pro by a long shot, that is with equal CPU capacity which i also notice XP has a terrible time after you collect a fair amount of only simple graphics, try opening just a folder and waiting for the overlay icons to draw is annoying at best and since i enjoy working with them makes me sick to see the lack of engineering microsoft suffers from on that. And no, not even a good video card (NVIDIA) does very much to imrove matters IMO.

Quote:
Just wanted to chime in as a computer tech who supports Windows PC's almost exclusively but now uses Linux. I dumped XP because I got tired of phoning MS whenever I changed components. Bleah. Don't want to think of what Vista will entail. Linux has matured. Most admin functions can be performed in a GUI interface now. The learning curve is tolerable.


That is another rediculous problem i run into, i can't remove my video card without XP Pro complaining theres "likely" been some hardware change and windows cannot operate normally or rather REFUSES to operate without the built-in graphics card unless i do a reinstall. Pure waste of users time and efforts. I hate that with a passion. Looks like you should be able to make a simple Hardware switch without having to reinstall the whole boat over again.

Microsoft DOESN'T HELP because they REFUSE to take consideration for the problems which waste way too much user/customer's time and efforts on annoyances that have no reason to have been implimented in the first place on XP.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suzi & Nick:

I found the support reference on Microsoft's own site, but that was about 4 months ago, and definitely subject to change. Nick is quite correct to point out the differences between Home and Enterprise, mainstream and extended support, which I failed to do (oops, sorry).

If I remember correctly, it was while browsing one of the many vulnerability alerts that either appeared here or on Spyware Info, that I ran across the reference on the M$ site.

Herbalist: yep me too (probably not service PCs anymore if everyone adopts Vista).

sleepingbear: LOL Smile

Easter: ok.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you say no support does that mean no more patches for security problems? I read somewhere that they are working on an SP3 is that correct or is it for a different operating system & not for XP?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I understand it is that support will unconditionally end for 98 on 30-June, but will continue for 2k and XP. That said, I do not know if there will be a service pack for 2k, where there probably will be for XP, with the caveats outlined above by Nick. Others who are more in the know will correct and elaborate on this if need be.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MICROSOFT IS PROVEN TO BECOME SUCH A HUGE DISAPPOINTMENT AS A TECH BUSINESS THAT SIMPLY CANNOT BE COUNTED ON TO SATISFY BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN TO REASON AND ARE SO CASH HAPPY THEY DON'T CARE IF THEY EVER GO ANY FARTHER THAN HAVE MADE IT TO NOW.

I would give an eye tooth to find another OS manufacture blow them away in the dust never to return again.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an unofficial SP3 out there for XP. Someone cobbled together a bunch patches and some unreleased stuff that may have been patches and put it into something called service pack 3. I wouldn't use it, since it hasn't been thoroughly tested and many of the fixes may make XP less stable or more vulnerable.

Easter, you need to calm down. Use that energy to learn Linux or somethig.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Easter, you need to calm down. Use that energy to learn Linux or somethig.


Good point, i need to forego anymore attention that obviously leads to no interest whatsoever out of that M$ camp and start my new crusade into the more anxiety-free alternative os's.
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vista's behaviour, look, etc. will likely change by the time it goes
RTM
Due to NDA constraints, us MVPs cannot discuss much other than what is currently public domain.

Silj
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siljaline wrote:
Vista's behaviour, look, etc. will likely change by the time it goes
RTM
Due to NDA constraints, us MVPs cannot discuss much other than what is currently public domain.

Silj

Acronyms are MFU by MVPs and MCSEs IMPE.

IIUYC, NDA means ICTYBTIHTKY. Therefore, WYSMBANRTWYG. Rolling Eyes

I would hazard a guess that the most controversial parts of Vista's "behaviour" will not change.
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siljaline wrote:
Vista's behaviour, look, etc. will likely change by the time it goes
RTM
Due to NDA constraints, us MVPs cannot discuss much other than what is currently public domain.

Silj


one way of buying off potental people from speaking out against ms make them mpv,s!!
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sleepingbear wrote:
Quote:
I would hazard a guess that the most controversial parts of Vista's "behaviour" will not change.
Pardon the acronyms, you should have clicked on the URL's in my reply, NDA means "Non Disclosure Agreement".
Vista will most likely go through some radical changes prior to its final release, we shall see. I, too whish none that a better operating system that is more secure yet easier to use than Windows XP.

Thank you.

Silj
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wawadave wrote:
Quote:
one way of buying off potental people from speaking out against ms make them mpv,s!!

I'll take that as tongue-in-cheek, Dave?
Off-Topic, too... Confused

Silj
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siljaline wrote:
[Pardon the acronyms, you should have clicked on the URL's in my reply, NDA means "Non Disclosure Agreement".
Vista will most likely go through some radical changes prior to its final release, we shall see. I, too whish none that a better operating system that is more secure yet easier to use than Windows XP.

Thank you.

Silj


De-jargonifying my last post:

"Acronyms are Most Frequently Used by Most Valuable Professionals and Microsoft Certified System Engineers In My Prior Experience.

If I Understand You Correctly, Non Disclosure Agreement means I Can Tell You But Then I Have To Kill You. Therefore, What You See May Bear Absolutely No Resemblance To What You Get." Very Happy

Silj, all kidding aside, I'd like to seriously thank you (and the numerous other MVPs here and elsewhere) for your efforts as a Vista beta tester. For the sake of everyone still looking forward to Vista, I hope that it achieves the goal you stated. Keep putting it to the test!

I also sincerely hope that users will be able to gain some control over their PC. I hope they will have the right to change hardware or reinstall without hassles, the right to a reasonable amount of privacy, the right to actually own a copy of the Operating System to use as they see fit, and so forth. All features eliminated over time in XP. I will refrain from Linux fan-boy speeches, but I believe I am using "a better operating system that is more secure yet easier to use than Windows XP" now.
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siljaline
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sleepingbear wrote:
Quote:
"Acronyms are Most Frequently Used by Most Valuable Professionals and Microsoft Certified System Engineers In My Prior Experience.

Some MVPs just love acroyms but not me, I seem to have slipped up here tonight Cool
Quote:
If I Understand You Correctly, Non Disclosure Agreement means I Can Tell You But Then I Have To Kill You.

Yes, then MS would kill me, but how would that work Wink
Quote:
Silj, all kidding aside, I'd like to seriously thank you (and the numerous other MVPs here and elsewhere) for your efforts as a Vista beta tester. For the sake of everyone still looking forward to Vista, I hope that it achieves the goal you stated. Keep putting it to the test!
Thanks for the Kudos, while I may sound like fun running a Beta operating system, it is a challenge.
Quote:
I also sincerely hope that users will be able to gain some control over their PC. I hope they will have the right to change hardware or reinstall without hassles, the right to a reasonable amount of privacy, the right to actually own a copy of the Operating System to use as they see fit, and so forth. All features eliminated over time in XP. I will refrain from Linux fan-boy speeches, but I believe I am using "a better operating system that is more secure yet easier to use than Windows XP" now.


Happy to hear that you have faith in XP now and look forward to Vista as I do.

Thanks for the reply and kind words!

Best,
Silj
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siljaline wrote:
wawadave wrote:
Quote:
one way of buying off potental people from speaking out against ms make them mpv,s!!

I'll take that as tongue-in-cheek, Dave?
Off-Topic, too... Confused

Silj


you signed a nda with ms?
meaning you cannot say just anything any more.

Quote:
Pardon the acronyms, you should have clicked on the URL's in my reply, NDA means "Non Disclosure Agreement".


so since you cannot say what your not alloud to say than how can we tell your not holding back?
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wawadave wrote:
Quote:
you signed a nda with ms?
Yes, I did. Read Q18
Quote:

meaning you cannot say just anything any more.

If I had to keep my mouth fully shut, Dave, I wouldn't be here at all, neither would ALL of the Security MVPs that help keep these Forums running. Read the MVP Overview and see for yourself.

Silj
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok i read those. Cool
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a nutshell, Dave, we are free to criticize MS to our hearts content. If they tell us something in confidence, and they clearly identify that, then we aren't allowed to relate that in public. It is really no different than the terms that we agree to when we are given access to private forum areas.
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siljaline wrote:


Happy to hear that you have faith in XP now and look forward to Vista as I do.

Thanks for the reply and kind words!

Best,
Silj


Silj, please read my comments again.

I truly do appreciate your work as a beta tester. It is a chore at times, definitely! I have a lot of respect for that type of work.

To be clear, I do not have faith in XP, I have multiple copies but did not reinstall it. I do not look forward to Vista, I will not purchase (or probably more correctly, rent) it for all the reasons mentioned in my previous posts unless those limitations are removable by the end user.

For what its worth, there is a beta of the operating system I now use. PCLinuxOS, to be specific. Anyone can download and test it, even me. I have run it but not extensively yet. There is no non-disclosure agreement. Discussion is open and encouraged, and is posted on a public forum for all to see, positive and negative. Good idea, in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In a nutshell, Dave, we are free to criticize MS to our hearts content. If they tell us something in confidence, and they clearly identify that, then we aren't allowed to relate that in public. It is really no different than the terms that we agree to when we are given access to private forum areas.


ok i see some are as vocal as ever well others seem to quiet down after mpved.
so it had me once again wondering on this. after seeing the nda mentioned.
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wawadave wrote:


ok i see some are as vocal as ever well others seem to quiet down after mpved.
so it had me once again wondering on this. after seeing the nda mentioned.


Me too Dave, hence my reference to the PCLoS beta procedures and forum. I forgot about the MVP forums at Microsoft. Point is still valid though. Do not have to have a special designation or sign anything to test it. There is no "confidential information" to disclose. The process is much more transparent, and to me more trustworthy.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beta testing, and the best way to implement a beta program, is a more complex subject than a lot of folks realize. The way the beta program is structured and the testers selected can have a large impact on the benefits of the testing process.

Having participated in a number of beta programs from different vendors in different formats I can state that my personal preference is a closed beta conducted with screened testers who are provided with clearly stated testing objectives at each step of the process.

Confidentiality in testing can be either good or bad. If the product under test is a commercial (paid for) application then I think confidentiality is important in the early stages becoming less so as the product nears release.
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